Shiur 3: 4a/4b

Another Cool Mentionable:
The Whole Sukkah Misnayos, Quickly Reviewed
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/mishna/archives/sukka.htm

From Ohr.edu (Ohr Somayach)
Upwards and Sideways

A succah must have at least three walls. Certain laws were given at Sinai to Moshe, even though they were not recorded in the Torah, which allow us to stretch the definition of a wall. One of these is the concept of "gud asik" which enables us to see as reality an imaginary, upward extension of an existing wall.

Two examples of this are mentioned: 1) The succah has the required number of walls of the required minimum height. However, they do not reach up to the schach (roofing) which is supported by tall poles. We therefore apply "gud asik" and view the walls as extending upward and reaching the schach. 2) Four poles are placed on the corners of a roof and upon them the schach is placed. There are no visible walls supporting the schach, but (according to one opinion) by applying "gud asik" we extend the walls of the house upward so that they form the necessary walls.

Both of these cases are cited in Shulchan Aruch. Regarding the first case, the halachic authorities point out that "gud asik" applies even if there is a sideways gap between the (imaginary) upward extension and the schach, provided this gap is less than three tefachim (handbreaths). This is made possible by applying another one of those aforementioned oral laws, called "lavud," which allows us to view any gap of less than three tefachim as non-existent. (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 630:9)

Regarding the second case, however, "gud asik" applies only if the poles in question are at the very edge of the roof. If they are not at the very edge, even if they are less than three tefachim away, we cannot "come to the rescue" with "lavud," and such a succah is invalid. (See Mishna Berura 630:31)

What is the difference?...

Entire Article: http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/312

Some More From Alfasi.blogspot.com
http://alfasi.blogspot.com/2006/09/rif-succah-1b-succah-2b-continues-3b.html

From Dafnote:
Sukkah 4 Highlights: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-4-highlights_06.html

Less than Ten

Sfas Emes quotes from the sefer Beis Yisroel that asks on the fact that the Gemora cites sources from the Torah that a sukkah is invalid if it's less than ten tefachim. Shouldn't it be passul because one cannot dwell comfortably in such a sukkah? The Sfas Emes answers that the possuk is needed for a case where the schach is higher than ten, but the walls are not. If not for the passuk, this would be valid for the schach is higher than ten.

The Brisker Rav states (similar to the Sfas Emes) that there are two aspects of this halacha. There is a requirement that the walls must be at least ten tefachim and that the sukkah must be one where a person can dwell comfortably. A difference would be in a case where one would rest his sukkah on bedposts. The sukkah has walls that are ten tefachim, however it would be passul for the bed inside the sukkah creates that one cannot live comfortably there.

Original Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-4-less-than-ten.html

Bent Walls

If a sukkah is higher than twenty amos and a platform is built next to three walls of the sukkah, this will reduce the size of the sukkah and it will be valid. If the platform is built less than four amos away from the walls, it will still be kosher due to the principle of dofan akumah.
...More on Dofan Akumah

There are two explanations in the Rishonim as to the mechanics of dofan akumah...

Entire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-4-bent-walls.html

Sitting or Standing

If the sukkah is higher than ten tefachim and some of the leaves from the schach hang down within ten tefachim and those leaves by itself would not have more shade than sun, there is an argument if the sukkah is kosher or not. Rava maintains that it is not valid for this is considered a dirah seruchah.

The Reshash asks how can a sukkah which is precisely ten tefachim high be valid, the height of a regular person is eighteen tefachim? A person will not be able to stand straight in this sukkah and it will be extremely uncomfortable?...

Entire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-4-sitting-or-standing.html

Thoughts from the Aleph Society on Sukkah 4a-4b: http://www.steinsaltz.org/dynamic/DafYomi_details.asp?Id=373
Diagram as described in Gemara: http://www.steinsaltz.org/dynamic/content.asp?id=124
See Diagrams of the various scenarios on the the first link, very good...
2a-5b On OU, same summary as the Aleph Society
http://www.ou.org/shabbat_shalom/article/masechet_sukkah25/

Question and Answers
Why no protective fence? http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il/msg01117.html
Itztava: http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il/msg01118.html

Shiur 3: 3a/3b

Please reference above for listening to the daf.

Halacha from the Daf: http://jbuff.com/Sukka3.pdf

DafNotes
Daf Yomi - Sukkah 3 - 49 Total or 7 by 7?
Tosfos, according to our version, rules that a sukkah that its length is longer than seven handbreaths, yet its width is less than seven would still be valid. It would seem that a sukkah that has over fortynine square tefachim would be valid. There is a version in Tosfos, brought down on the side of our Gemoros that disagrees with this and holds that a sukkah must have seven tefachim by the length and the width.
Original Link: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-3-49-total-or-7-by-7.html

Daf Yomi - Sukkah 3 - Sukkah Corners

The Magen Avrohom 634 rules that if one has a corner in a large sukkah that does not have seven square tefachim, one cannot sit in that portion of the sukkah for the space is too cramped to sit comfortably. He sites our Gemora as proof to this, for the compartment where Hilni was sitting was not deemed as part of the large sukkah.

Biur Halacha quotes the Bikurei Yaakov as asking on the proof...

Entire Post:
http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-3-sukkah-corners.html

Daf Yomi - Sukkah 3 - Tableless Sukkah

The Gemora concludes that Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel argue in two cases. They argue as to what is the minimum size a sukkah can be to still be valid. Beis Shamai holds that the sukkah must be large enough to contain the person's head, a majority of his body and the table. Beis hillel maintains that it is sufficient even if it cannot contain the table. They also argue on a large sukkah that is next to a house and the table is in the house. Beis Shamai states that one does not fulfill his mitzva in this manner for there is a concern that he will be drawn after his table, which is in the house and Beis Hillel disagrees...

Entire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-3-tableless-sukkah.html

Daf Yomi - Sukkah 3 - Mitzva of Maakeh

The Gemora states that if one has a house that is less than four amos squared, he is exempt from building a fence around the roof, for this is not considered a house. The commentators ask that it is still a stumbling block and if one doesn't build a fence there, it will endanger people's lifes? The Gemora in Bava Kamma 15b learns from the passuk of lo sasim damim beveisecha that one should not raise a wild dog in his house or a rickety ladder. Shouldn't he be required to build a fence here because of the possibility of someone falling?...

Entire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-3-mitzva-of-maakeh_05.html


More: Daf Yomi - Sukkah 3 - Highlights

Q&A regarding Helena story, why not just remove the walls?
http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss%40shemayisrael.co.il/msg01116.html

Q&A regarding the word Posul, isn't it posul to use the word with d'rabanans?
http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss%40shemayisrael.co.il/msg01119.html

Written Shiur 3a
Daniel Z Feldman
The Power of the Rabbis to Override Torah Law (Yesh Koach B’Y’dei Chachamim L’Akor Davar Min HaTorah B’Shev V’Al Ta’aseh)
http://www.yutorah.org/daf/dialogs/text.cfm?shiurID=710395&shiurSeforimSourceID=6001025#

More tomorrow...

Shiur 2: Sukkah 2a/2b cont.

Other Places to Here the Daf:
The Orthodox Union: http://www.ouradio.org/daf/P96/
DafYomi.org: http://www.dafyomi.org/index.php?masechta=succah&daf=2a&go=Go
HaDaf HaYomi (Meorot HaDaf): http://hadafhayomi.co.il/index.php?l=en&a=homepage/archive&id=44&shortcut=1

Great Resources cont.

Daf Yomi Digest for Sukkah 2: http://dafdigest.org/sukkah/Sukkah%20002.pdf

Halacha for Sukkah 2: http://jbuff.com/Sukka2.pdf

Interesting Question and Answer about the comparision of Mavoy and Sukkah in Daf 2a
http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss%40shemayisrael.co.il/msg01113.html

Interesting Question and Answer about what does it mean that the walls reach the S'cach: http://www.mail-archive.com/daf-discuss%40shemayisrael.co.il/msg01120.html

It states in Succah 2a, the pasuk from Isiah (4:6) that is basis of the opinion of R' Zeira regarding the reason why the Sukkah cannot be more than 20 amos tall. Later, this is disregarded by the other two opinions on the next amud (though R' Zeira has a backing based on the wording) as incorrect due to the pasuk describing the times of Moshiach. Rabbeinu Chananel has a note on this in the bottom corner of 2a (v'R Zeira sukkah limut hamashiach he. Klomar... asbout 10 lines from the bottom), for English see Artscroll Schottenstein Edition 2b1, note 4.
The following drasha explains this idea further amongst related ones:
http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/archives/sukkos1.htm (section IV quotes from Sukkah 2a the 3rd opinion of Rava interstingly enough too)

R' Shlomo Singer has a b'iyun shiur collection YU's site. Beginning with this http://www.yutorah.org/remoteShowShiur.cfm?shiurID=716353
You need the Ran to follow along. Analyzing the Mishna's Sun v. Shade matter (2a), Rashi's comment on them by the Ran, mentions other sources too.

Shiur #1: Sukkah 2a/2b

I have done the daf yomi mostly since Meseches Pesachim...yet I need to review. So, I am setting up a calendar to review beginning with Sukkah. I will publicize this, so others can use the resources I cite. Please send additional ones, I will update if necessary posts if I find other resources of interest.

To See the Gemara
Visit e-daf.com also YU has a magnifying glass for enhanced viewing (see http://www.yutorah.org/daf.cfm?masechta=6010&daf=2&amud=a)

2a/2b
Shiurim: Daf 2 (see which you like)
YU: http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=715963
Daily Gemara: http://www.dailygemara.com/Default.asp?MasechetID=11&PageID=623

Intro to Mesechta: http://www.steinsaltz.org/dynamic/DafYomi_details.asp?id=370

Links: http://alfasi.blogspot.com/2006/09/rif-succah-1a-succah-2a-b.html
http://alfasi.blogspot.com/2006/09/rif-succah-1b-succah-2b-continues-3b.html

From Kollel Iyun HaDaf
Background: http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sukah/backgrnd/su-in-002.htm
Insights: http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sukah/insites/su-dt-002.htm
More Later...
Point by Point Outline: http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/sukah/points/su-ps-002.htm


Blog Posts:
Dafnotes
Daf Yomi - Sukkah 2 - Shade at Twenty Amos
The Chachamim maintain that a Sukkah that is higher than twenty amos is invalid. One of the reasons offered by the Gemara is that one is obligated to sit in the shade of the Sukkah, which refers to the s’chach. When the Sukkah is higher than twenty amos, there will be no shade from the s’chach. Rather, the shade will be from the walls. Ritva wonders about this, because in the middle of the day, when the sun is directly above, the shade will be from the s’chach and not from the walls?...
Entire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-2-shade-at-twenty-amos.html

Daf Yomi - Sukkah 2 - Spelling of Sukkah
The Cheishek Shlomo notes that the word Sukkah is always spelled in the Talmud with the letter vav, yet in Scripture the word Sukkah is always spelled without a vav. The word Sukkos in the plural form, however, is spelled with a vav...
Enire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-2-spelling-of-sukkah.html

Daf Yomi - Sukkah 2 - A Little Bit Shady
A Sukkah is designed to provide shade. The Mishnah states that if the sunny area of a Sukkah is greater than its shaded area, the Sukkah is invalid. Rashi explains that the minority of shaded area on the Sukkah floor is negated by the majority of sunny area. The commentators wonder why it was necessary for Rashi to offer this reason. Is it not obvious that a Sukkah that does not have the necessary amount of shade is invalid?...
Enire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-2-little-bit-shady.html

Daf Yomi - Sukkah 2 - Chanukah Derived from the Torah
The Gemora brings a Mishna in Eruvin which contains an argument regarding a mavuy which is higher than twenty cubits. The sages hold that it not valid and one should lower it and Rabbi Yehuda maintains that lowering it is not necessary. The Gemora explains why our Mishna states that the sukkah is unfit and the Mishna in Eruvin states how to fix the mavuy. One of the distinctions offered is that sukkah is a halacho from the Torah and therefore it says psula, however mavuy which is only from the sages, we do not utilize the word 'pasul,' rather the Mishna states what the options are.

Tosfos asks from a Gemora in Shabbos that states if one placed the menorah for Chanukah higher than twenty cubits from the street, it is passul. Lighting the menorah on Chanukah is only from the sages, so how can we state pesula?...
Entire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-2-chanukah-derived.html

Daf Yomi - Sukkah 2 - Chinuch with all the Pitchevkes
There is an argument regarding a sukkah that is more than twenty amos high. The sages hold that it is invalid and Rabbi Yehuda maintains that it is kosher. The Gemora proceeds to bring a proof by relating a story where the sages went to visit Hilni the Queen. Her sukkah was more than twenty cubits high. The Gemora could not bring a proof from her for a woman is exempt from the obligation of sitting in a sukkah. However, there is a proof nonetheless, for Hilni had seven sons and certainly one of them was of the age of chinuch and hence Hilni had an obligation to ensure that her son was sitting in a kosher sukkah.
Entire Post: http://dafnotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/daf-yomi-sukkah-2-chinuch-with-all.html
See Also: Posul is Posul
Sukkah 2 Highlights